Unseasoned: Anna Le

What happens when an outdoor dream job is no longer your dream?

Welcome to the June Unseasoned interview!

Unseasoned is a series interviewing folks who leave behind outdoor seasonal gigs for 9-5s, entrepreneurship, or other year-round work. You can read more about the premise here.

This month we welcome Anna Le, a seasonal fisheries technician and outdoor educator turned science communicator and educator. 

Anna loves teaching the interconnections of environmental concepts, is learning how to set aside “itchy feet syndrome” and settle in one place, and thinks it’s time for non-profit and agency folks to do the diversity, equity, and inclusion work they keep talking about (note from Emerald: amen)!

As always, I’d love to hear what you thought of this interview. How did you build community when you first moved from seasonal work to year-round work? Either reply here or find me on IG: @emeraldlafortune

-Emerald

PS: A note that there will be no July Unseasoned interview, as Casey and I will be thru-hiking the Idaho Centennial Trail! I promise some double content come the autumn months to make up for it ;)

PPS: Happy Pride, to LGBTQIA2S+ readers and Happy Juneteenth to Black readers! I hope you found ways to celebrate within yourself, with friends, and/or out in your community this month.

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THE INTERVIEW

Name: Anna Le

Location: Portland, OR

Current Role: Program Manager & Graduate Student

Anna’s Social Links: 

• LinkedIn / Instagram / Twitter

“We're giving politicians the seat at the table to make these decisions without necessarily the background to make informed decisions.”

EMERALD: Tell me about a great “day in the life” in one of your past outdoor seasonal roles.

ANNA: One of my favorite days, or multiple days actually, was my season in Yellowstone National Park. It was waking up at 5:00 AM, picking up people at around 6:00 AM, and going out to watch wolves and bears each morning. Then talking about the species, their ecology and their coexistence and presence and importance to the Yellowstone ecosystem. Every day I did that with different families and students and at the end of the day I'd be like, “Wow, that was the best day ever.” And then I have to wake up in a few hours to do it again. I enjoyed it because I was able to share with people something they were experiencing for the first time.

EMERALD: What was the hardest part of outdoor seasonal work for you?

ANNA: The hardest part was constantly thinking about the next thing. So even though I had just started a position, in two to three weeks I'd be thinking,  “Okay, this position ends in a few months and therefore I still have to go and apply for jobs for the next season.” It was really hard to be present. Even especially in really cool job opportunities I would constantly have to think, “Where am I going to be next? What is housing going to look like? I have to start looking for jobs again and start interviewing for job positions.”

It was also tough realizing that  the friendships and relationships that you make during your seasonal time will have to be uprooted. Everything was on a deadline.

EMERALD: What were you most worried about when leaving seasonal work? Did those fears actualize? 

ANNA: The biggest fear I had was commitment issues. I was thinking, “Okay, if I'm stuck in one workplace, will I enjoy that work? And if I don't enjoy it, what's going to happen?” Because it's not on a timeline anymore. It's not going to end at a certain date. 

Then also getting itchy feet syndrome, as I call it. After three months what happens with my mind is that I'll start thinking about moving again even though it may or may not be in a good move for myself at that time with my current job. I'd just think , “Oh no, I have to leave.”

I constantly think about moving because I've been so used to it. 

So that was the hardest part about leaving seasonal work. I was constantly having the urge to uproot my life and leave even though I had a permanent position and a stable house and a stable income. 

I think it was the four or five month mark, I really had to reflect with my therapist and ask, “Why do I have to have this urge, this horrible urge, to uproot my life and kind of self-sabotage everything that I've worked towards? And what does that really mean?” And he said, “Well, you know, you've been working towards something for so long and constantly in a state of survival.” It was really hard for my body come back and be centered again after being in a state of survival for so long.

EMERALD: How did you land in your current role as a science communicator? 

ANNA: It started off with my first few jobs in actual hardcore academia science and research. The first few years of my undergrad I was doing marine biology work and labs, sorting samples, messing around with data, trying to publish papers, and really into the academia world.

Then I read this article during my internship about how science communication is really important for science in general and how a lot of policies and laws are passed due to how politicians do or don’t understand science. I remember being so angry at the end of that discussion and feeling that we should all do better to communicate science to the general public because if we don't, this is how horrible, non-science based policies are passed. We're giving politicians the seat at the table to make these decisions without necessarily the background to make informed decisions. And then that's when I got more into science education and science communication world. It was through anger, pretty much. And also realizing that there is a huge need for educators and more scientists to be able to communicate science effectively to different audiences.

EMERALD: Was your seasonal experience a help or a hindrance in securing your current position?

ANNA: It was a huge help. Some of it was a hindrance. I guess I’d say everything that I've done makes sense now. I made so many sacrifices in my relationships and personal life and professional life. But then looking back I think, “Well, if I didn't go there I would've never met this person who connected me with this other person.” It was all this networking because it's such a small community to begin with. Looking back now, I do have to say every experience helped me, even though it was really, really hard to get through some of the seasons.

“It was all this networking because it's such a small community to begin with. Looking back now, I do have to say every experience helped me, even though it was really, really hard to get through some of the seasons.”

EMERALD: I meet many employers of seasonal staff who are struggling to retain employees, particularly highly-skilled senior staff. What changes, if any, to the workplace or outdoor industry would have extended your tenure in a seasonal role?

ANNA: Money is a big one. The salary paid was the biggest struggle as a seasonal tech. I remember working a seasonal tech position 40 hours a week and then on top of that doing DoorDash or Uber Eat because I couldn't afford to live in a city where I was located. I did have a few seasonal positions where I said, “Hey, if you have funding and you can bring me on full-time, I would absolutely love to do this longer.” But the response was always, “We don't have that much for this,” or, “Hey, we can only pay you $12 to $15 an hour.” That's the same wage as a high schooler is making or folks in outdoor industry careers were making back in the seventies or eighties, you know?

Workplace culture was a huge factor as well. There was often no diversity, equity, inclusion training, there was really no acceptance or tolerance for other people, other than the straight white male bro culture. 

Location was a really tough factor too. And that's something that you maybe can’t change. But also to better the workplace environment, you have to better your communities, so people can be safe in these locations. 

The benefits and how employees are being treated were also relevant. I think I’ve moved around to 13, 14 different places by now with seasonal work.  Some of them I can tell that they're really taking care of their employees and the leadership has it together and is advocating for employees.

Then some other ones, HR is not on your side, there is no union. You're being micromanaged, you have no benefits, you're getting severely underpaid. Then they kind of wonder, “Hey, why do we have a lot of turnover?” It's very obvious when you're an employee who has left that place. But for people who have   constantly been in that same leadership position for decades, it’s hard to see what kind of positive changes could be made to retain staff and employees. 

Unfortunately, I also see that white supremacy, capitalistic culture in the younger generation. They’ve learned that perspective on what leadership looks like: talking down on people, micromanagement, and working from the top down rather than from a side to side community aspect. 

EMERALD: How did your family (defined broadly as any intimate familial, romantic, or platonic connections) interact with your seasonal work? 

ANNA: It was awesome when family could come visit me at these really cool places I was working at, that part was fun. But then for the most part it was really hard.  I remember my really good friends in Denver… I thought I was going to stay for a bit. Then I had to up and leave out of nowhere and I remember them meeting me over for dinner and saying, “We were so excited to have you here.”

I hear that every time I move. And it's so heartbreaking because you only think about yourself at that moment. You’re thinking, “What do I need to survive right now?” I'm also really sad that I have to uproot my relationships but you also don't think about how others may feel until they actually tell you. 

It’s hard but it's also made us stronger because there is more intention when you connect with your friends or family. You can kind of  check in and it's more thoughtful, not just because you’re in the same place.

EMERALD: Are your relationships different now that you are in a year-round role? If yes, how so?

ANNA: Yes because I get to reconnect with some folks that I've been good friends with since I lived in Oregon. But then kind of lost touch when I left.  When I moved back here as a late 20-something year old, I kind of realized that I’ve been bouncing around all these seasonal positions alone and single and pretty much solo for the most part. Other people were settling down and forming their community and building relationships with each other.

As I’ve finally settled in a place I'm like, “Oh wow - people kind of live differently.” It’s been hard to reconnect and find community again because I feel everyone's already doing that and they have their community and aren’t wanting to open up.

EMERALD: How did moving from seasonal work to a year-round opportunity change your financial situation? 

ANNA: It's more stable financially. I'm not constantly thinking about going on unemployment in between seasons. I remember when I was working a seasonal life, I'd have to move home during the winter months when there was no job and live with my parents and then uproot my life and then move out in the spring. With a year round opportunity, it's good because there's a stable source of income and sometimes benefits. 

But in some ways, since I've gotten to Portland and have a more stable life, I have more financial problems because of housing and utilities and everything that a stable life person typically would have, I now have. 

EMERALD: What does being a “science communicator” mean to you? 

ANNA: The reason why I became a science communicator and science educator was to bring a different perspective into science. When you talk about science and read these articles, they are often written by a very certain demographic of people that are only ever representing a certain audience. I thought, “Hey, what about rural communities? And what about the underrepresented communities in poverty and all of these displaced communities that are near all these environmental disasters or you know, firsthand communities that are being affected?” Then you realize, those perspectives aren't being represented because there are no voices to represent these communities. Sometimes communication also takes into consideration more the intersectionality too with people in place and more subjects and perspectives.

What is your favorite scientific concept to teach and why?

ANNA: The environment. It's such a global perspective. Every other aspect of science is so concrete and very niche, whereas the environment, in order to learn about one aspect of the environment, you have to learn about everything associated with it. Everything is interconnected with one another. The fun part is  in order to get the answers to a biological or environmental question, you have to search for the answers elsewhere too in order to connect back to what you're teaching about.

EMERALD: You worked in science education and biology roles in Montana, before returning to the Pacific Northwest, due to what sounds to me  navigating toxic, sexist and racist work culture. What suggestions would you give to non-profit and agency folks working to make their workplaces more gender and racially inclusive?

ANNA: I sometimes feel guilty, among my peers of early career professionals, for not wanting to do diversity, equity, inclusion work. That was the only way people knew me, as being one of the only women of color in the fish biology world. So I kept getting invited onto panels to talk about my experience and how to make fisheries biology a better place. And then, you know, at the end of the day, none of those suggestions were taken. It was pretty much me being put on stage, given the light and the microphone. Then they’d be like, “Thank you so much for your participation. I hear you and I'm not going to listen to you. I'm going to move forward but I'm going to now ask your other peers what they think and what we should do.”

I kept seeing that as a pattern. So nowadays when people are asking me to talk about anything within diversity, equity, inclusion, I'll show them the actual work of how that could be created rather than just talking. I signed up to be an educator and a biologist, not a person of color. At the end of the day, with a lot of these non-profits and workplaces, I'll still say the same thing: If you want to make this sector more diverse or inclusive and equitable, you do it.

Hire the person to these positions. Don't keep asking people how to do it… do it. It starts with you. Hire me, that's the first step to include more perspectives and voices. Then also be open to learning. 

A lot of these places I worked at there are white women that would say, “Back in the day there weren't enough women in this career and now there's plenty. So I think we're diverse enough.”

That’s hurtful. I think I'm tired of talking about this at this point. But at the end of the day I'll tell these people that you either adapt and evolve or you die out. I see a lot of these organizations unable to adapt or be willing to evolve. Staff are leaving and they have no employee retention. There's a lot of turnover, there's a lack of public support all of a sudden because certain generations are moving on and it's harder to get the newer generation involved because they're not feeling or seeing themselves represented. 

The biggest takeaway is, start doing what you said you’re going to do.

EMERALD: What does “dream job” mean to you? Has this definition changed?

ANNA: If you talked to me back in 2021, I would say the dream job is to be an environmental educator and biologist working for National Geographic or abroad and never retiring because I love my job so much. I would want to do it forever and not get paid. Then you hit burnout and you get PTSD. You realize your dream job is made up of a harmful, capitalistic viewpoint. 

Back in the day, very young naive go-getter Anna, she would say, “Oh yeah,  I live to work and work is my identity and I love the jobs that I do so much and I care about it so much.”

That has changed to, “I work to live.” If I had a choice, I wouldn't be working. I would be married rich and go volunteer my time instead and be a philanthropist!  I want to find a job that I like enough to work and stick with rather than make it my whole entire identity. Once you get burned out or are traumatized you start realizing that your job really isn't connected to your identity or it shouldn't be. I tell a lot of students and incomers, “Make yourself your own identity. Don't connect too hard with a job because at the end of the day, you are more than a job.”

EMERALD: If someone in outdoor seasonal work is interested in shifting into a more year-round role, what would you suggest they consider? Why?

ANNA: I would say there are a lot of pros and cons. Consider what kind of values you hold. Because often you have to take a pay cut to get a year round role or to evolve into a more permanent position. I hate telling people that. Part of the reason why you do seasonal work is to get many perspectives and experiences under your belt and on your resume in order to evolve into a more permanent position. Each path is different, but that was my path and why I did seasonal life. I wanted to have a more well-rounded perspective on things before I settled down. 

Also I’d suggest looking into the organizations you want to work with, the pay, whether or not you would consider going back to school. 

So I'd ask this person considering a switch, “What are your true values in life? Have you figured those out yet?”

EMERALD: Imagine you’re eighty years old, retired, living your best life. In three - five sentences, describe the scene.

ANNA: Living my best life I would be in a house somewhere with a few acres. Every day I get to hang out with my goats and milk them to make soap and then hang out with my chickens and gather their eggs to sell. I’d live a very simple life.

Past Non-Seasonal Roles

• Water Quality Specialist

• Executive Assistant

Past Seasonal Roles

• Field Instructor

• Program Instructor

• River Watch and In-Stream Flow Intern

• Assistant Outdoor School Coordinator

• Biological Science Technician

• Peer Educator

• Public Affairs Intern

Education & Certifications

• B.S. in Fisheries and Wildlife Sciences at Oregon State University
  Specialiation: Natural Resources and Environmental Law and Policy

• Wilderness First Responder Certified

• CPR/AED/First Aid

• Certfied Interpretative Guide (CIG) through National Association of Interpretation

• Currently MSc. in Science Education at Montana State University

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